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Winch straight onto chassey ?

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  • Winch straight onto chassey ?

    Watching top gear the other night when they drove a rangie, cruiser and suzuki out of the Bolivan jungle, I noticed they fitted the three of them with winches and none of them had bullbars. It looked like they were somehow mounted to the chassey. Does anyone have an idea about how it would have been done and could it be a reasonable alternative to a bullbar?
    silver PC Challenger,nudge bar,towbar,Rhino racks,BF Goodrich AT ko 265/70 x16.

  • #2
    http://www2.pajeroclub.com.au/forum/...ad.php?t=33951

    See this thread and below something i was looking at but gave up on. Price was going to be sameish as a full bar so might as well get the bar with bonus of protection!

    http://www.wolf4x4.com.au/recovery-e...-triton-ml-mn/
    NOW : 2012 JKU WRANGLER

    GONE BUT NOT FORGOTTEN : 2012 PB Challenger LS Auto - M/T ATZ P3 285/70/17, Black factory alloys, Xrox sliders, Xrox bullbar, FYRLYT's, Aurora 30" lightbar, Runva 11xp winch, Ultimate suspension lift & brake upgrade, Airtec snorkel, Bushskinz, ORS drawers, Redarc DBS with solar, UHF, SPV EGR mod, Rhino pioneer platform, 3.15 reduction gears, Wholesale autos hd nomad valve body..

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    • #3
      All winches are ultimately attached to the chassis;
      1. With a steel bull bar, the central section forms the winch mount.
      2. With an alloy bar, normally these have a steel winch mount that sits behind the alloy bar, I am not aware of any alloy winch bars for PB Challengers.
      3. With a Smartbar, these have a steel winch mount that sits behind the poly bar, these are not available for the PB Challenger.
      4. there are winch mounts that do not require a bull bar, these are common overseas where anti bull bar laws are very strict. These are available via the internet but from what I have seen is they cost about $1500 + fitting and you compromise your approach angle significantly and some require the removal of the front welded crossmember. You save some weight but not a lot of money so most people that really want a winch go down the steel bull bar route.

      Some companies have refused to develop winch bars for the PB Challenger due to it's 1260kg front axle load max recommendation. Because by the time you add 50% of the front passenger weights and 20%of the rear passenger weights which total about 110kg, based on the 68kg average that is used, then add the weight of the winch 20-25kg + winch mount bar 20-60kg + a second battery 12-17kg, you end up very close or over the front axle limit.

      The above are only static loads and winch bar and winch loads are multiplied significantly once the vehicle is in motion due to the leverage they have caused by their location 800mm+ of the axle centreline. The Challenger's forward chassis section is not overly strong and only time will tell if it is up to the loads of a steel bar + winch + 2nd battery.
      Front suspension will require upgrading.

      cheers, old Jack.
      2011 PB Base White Auto, Smartbar, Cooper STMaxx LT235/85R-16,TPMS, HR TB, 3 x Bushskinz, front +40mm Dobinson , rear +50mm EHDVR Lovells, Dobinson MT struts and shockers, Peddars 5899 cone springs, Windcheater rack, GME UHF, Custom alloy drawer system inc. 30lt Engel & 2 x 30 AH LiFePo batteries + elec controls, Tailgate hi-lift/long struts, Phillips +100 LB & HB, Lightforce 20" single row driving beam LED lightbar, Scanguage II.
      MM4x4 Auto Mate, Serial No 1 .

      Comment


      • #4
        Weight in the rear will offset load over the front axle, however, as you point out, suspension should be upgraded anyway. Tritons have the same chassis at the front and there have been no reports that I've ever seen of problems with the front part of the chassis. With MLs having been around since 2007 one would imagine that any weakness would have become apparent by now, especially since there are plenty of them with steel bars and winches.

        The non-bar winch mount is certainly a viable option for those who want a winch, but no bar. I'd think that, here in Australia at least, the popularity of the bar and winch combination is due to the fact that in the places where we go four wheel driving a bar is more likely to be of use than a winch, and if you do need a winch then you're probably in country where the better approach angle of a bar would serve you well anyway.
        Chris

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        • #5
          Is there an ADR for frontal impact crumple zones. If so these winch cradles might not be legal in Aust. All compliant bullbars to my knowledge have crumple zones built into the mounts.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by fester View Post
            Is there an ADR for frontal impact crumple zones. If so these winch cradles might not be legal in Aust. All compliant bullbars to my knowledge have crumple zones built into the mounts.
            ADR 69 Front Impact & ADR 73 Offset Impact only specify how the testing is to be carried out and the measurements are calculated and interrupted.

            New Bull bars must be constructed to Australian Standard AS4876.1 and be compliant in design and it is this Australian Standard that indicates there should be no negative impact on the vehicles performance under ADR69 & 73 tests.

            Most modern bull bars bolt on to the front of the vehicles structure and it is only if this attachment extends rearwards significantly that crumple zones are effected. The SRS Airbag systems are reactive to the amount of force and the rate of deceleration detected so bullbar or not if you hit a tree, car, roo, cow or anything else, the SRS system will calculated when to fire the airbags.

            As consumers we have been spun the "great bull bar / airbag myth" and get sucked in by "special collapsable mounts" especially if they are painted a different colour. Airbags will only trigger when forces are more than an 18kph to 20 kph impact of the vehicle at kerb weight into a solid wall (70 tons minimum). No bullbar or its mounting hardware is strong enough to withstand forces of these magnitudes.

            These comments will most likely stir up some discussion but basic physics, math and logic can prove my opinion.

            cheers, old Jack.
            2011 PB Base White Auto, Smartbar, Cooper STMaxx LT235/85R-16,TPMS, HR TB, 3 x Bushskinz, front +40mm Dobinson , rear +50mm EHDVR Lovells, Dobinson MT struts and shockers, Peddars 5899 cone springs, Windcheater rack, GME UHF, Custom alloy drawer system inc. 30lt Engel & 2 x 30 AH LiFePo batteries + elec controls, Tailgate hi-lift/long struts, Phillips +100 LB & HB, Lightforce 20" single row driving beam LED lightbar, Scanguage II.
            MM4x4 Auto Mate, Serial No 1 .

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks Old Jack. My query was in reference to the crumple mounts used by ARB for example but I suppose they only have to if the original crumple zones are negated. On my Jeep the crumple zone must be in the bumper (which I've never seen) as the car is monocoque so the ARB mounts have a crumple section buit into them. If the bar bolts to a crumple mount I guess it doesn't have to have crumple mounts as such.

              A few of the Jeep guys are building their own bars and as such there is no longer any crumple zone in the front end.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Lenbow View Post
                Watching top gear the other night when they drove a rangie, cruiser and suzuki out of the Bolivan jungle, I noticed they fitted the three of them with winches and none of them had bullbars. It looked like they were somehow mounted to the chassey. Does anyone have an idea about how it would have been done and could it be a reasonable alternative to a bullbar?
                Pretty sure on that Top Gear episode they all had hitch receivers on the front of the vehicles. The winches were mounted to cradles that just slot in like a tow hitch would.
                Not a bad way to do it really, then you can use the winch from front or back hitches depending on your need at the time, just need to run power to both ends. Plus you don't constantly have the weight hanging on the front 99.9% of the time when you don't need it.

                Also a lot easier to service the winch as you don't need to remove a bar.

                Biggest issue is finding somewhere to carry it when not needed.
                MN GL-R, ARB Front and Rear Bars, Rocksliders, Canopy, uniden uhf, Kumho KL71s, Rear Locker, tigerz11 winch, dual batts.

                North Brisbane

                Even a broken clock is right twice a day...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well said Old Jack! This also applies to the myth you can't use your high lift jack on new cars with bull bars due to airbags. A jack could not possibly deploy an airbag on a stationary vehicle. There might be other reasons not to use a high lift off your bulbar but airbag deployment is not one!

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