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  • Clutch durability

    Hi all,

    Wondering if any PB manual owners have had any clutch slip issues at only50,000km??? I noticed a few weeks ago my clutch slipped on one (1) only gear change. The next day, my wife (who is the main driver) mentioned casually "do you thin the clutch feels a bit funny"? - not slipping, just that the operation feels not quite right. How coincidental!

    Anyway, over the last couple of weeks it seems to have been fine. Car was in for a scheduled service today so I asked them to take a look. Response was that it was "on the way out and I should keep an eye on it". Also asked if I tow a boat regularly (they are thinking I am giving it a bit of stick on a boat ramp!) No, I don't have a boat I say, but tow my 1000kg jayco and have to ride the clutch a little on the odd hill start because the car is geared so damn high in 1st and it will stall otherwise!!!

    Now, firstly I think 50,000km is $h!t performance for a clutch life. I've had older manuals before, with 100k+ more kms on them, towed with them and have never had a clutch go.
    Some of you may recall from a previous post of mine a couple of years back I had a noisy thrust bearing replaced under warranty. One wonders if the work undertaken has something to do with it?

    Any thoughts guys?

    Cheers,
    Bigdave
    Cheers,
    Bigdave

    Parted ways with my 2010 PB Manual after 9 years of reliable motoring...
    Icom 440 Remote UHF, 130AH AGM in rear, Tekonsha Primus IQ Brake Controller, Bridgestone D697s, HR Towbar, Kings KCRS-23 springs / Pedders 5899. Single axle 18' Caravan with muddies & good clearance - ATM 2.5T/Ball weight 250kg

  • #2
    I have a friend with a Challenger who gets a bit of slip when towing....only if the chip is installed ( chip it )......and started doing it at 15,000 K's.....

    Mine has the same chip...has done 60,000 K's and no sign of slipping..

    He has taken it back to Mitsu, but without towing, they obviously can't get it to slip.....

    One of the thoughts was seeing as there are 2 different types of clutch available for the Challenger ( but we only get the stronger one here ), has my friend got the weaker clutch??....somehow installed at the factory by mistake ??

    I think generally ( hope not to jinx myself ) the Mitsu clutch seems to be a fairly strong unit...especially compared to Nissan and Mazda ones..


    As a side note, I had a Jackaroo once that had slipping problems, and after removing the clutch, it was found to be almost brand new ( 100,000 K's ), but the pressure plate fingers had lost tension....cost me $750 for a full rebuild of the original clutch....as opposed to $2500 for a new Holden one..

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks Greig,

      Interesting info.

      I should add that my solitary clutch slip was not while towing, and just gently changing from 1st to 2nd.

      Cheers,
      Bigdave
      Cheers,
      Bigdave

      Parted ways with my 2010 PB Manual after 9 years of reliable motoring...
      Icom 440 Remote UHF, 130AH AGM in rear, Tekonsha Primus IQ Brake Controller, Bridgestone D697s, HR Towbar, Kings KCRS-23 springs / Pedders 5899. Single axle 18' Caravan with muddies & good clearance - ATM 2.5T/Ball weight 250kg

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Dave,

        Unfortunately the manual 4wd Challenger is fitted with a Dual Mass Flywheel, these DMF's are fitted to many modern diesels that produce high power and torque. They are fitted to make the driving experience more car like by isolating engine pulses from the driveline however due to the DMF's construction they do not have a long life when used in high load situations such as towing, off road and/or the engine is chipped . Some DMF's fail at 20,000km and others do up to to 100,000km or more before they have problems. DMF's must be replaced when the clutch plate is changed and they can not be machined and are not cheap at $3K to $5K for parts and labour. There are some aftermarket DMF's and also single mass flywheel conversion kits made but I am not aware of one for the PB Challenger at this stage.

        The standard factory clutch has quite a high clamping force at 7,000 Newtons but because of the low mass of the flywheel on the clutch side of the DMF it is very easy to overheat the fly wheel and clutch plate, once this occurs then the clutch will slip and once slipping it will continue to deteriorate. I have not heard of any DMF failures on Challengers yet and have not checked on the New Triton website. If they had an inherent weakness I am sure the New Triton boys would have found it as they go hard and heavy!

        We need to remember the clutch is the mechanical fuse that separates the engine and driveline, overload or mistreat it and it will "blow" and you have no drive. You are correct the high first gearing and the turbo-lag of a 4 cylinder CRD engine means that on starting on an incline with a heavy load requires some clutch mistreatment and in this case the auto trans is better suited for these applications but at the expense of greater fuel consumption and loss of driving performance and feel.

        Sorry, this probably does not help or make you feel better but it is a design limitation that the manual Challenger and many other vehicles have.

        cheers, old Jack.
        2011 PB Base White Auto, Smartbar, Cooper STMaxx LT235/85R-16,TPMS, HR TB, 3 x Bushskinz, front +40mm Dobinson , rear +50mm EHDVR Lovells, Dobinson MT struts and shockers, Peddars 5899 cone springs, Windcheater rack, GME UHF, Custom alloy drawer system inc. 30lt Engel & 2 x 30 AH LiFePo batteries + elec controls, Tailgate hi-lift/long struts, Phillips +100 LB & HB, Lightforce 20" single row driving beam LED lightbar, Scanguage II.
        MM4x4 Auto Mate, Serial No 1 .

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Dave,

          I have just had a call from the guys that do "Outback Extreme" clutches, according to them the Mitsubishi Flexible Flywheel is not a conventional design DMF and is more robust and can be machined at least once and is less prone to failure than conventional DMF's. Thats good news!

          There are after market HD clutches available for about $950, the factory clutch has a clamping force of 7,000N which is 714kg and the Outback Extreme has a clamping force of 950kg, that is a 33% increase! I know from experience on other 4wds that I have upgraded to HD clutches that they are great but they do put extra load on the hydraulics so a replacement master & slave cylinders and clutch line dampener are normally required soon after fitting a HD clutch.

          cheers, old Jack.
          2011 PB Base White Auto, Smartbar, Cooper STMaxx LT235/85R-16,TPMS, HR TB, 3 x Bushskinz, front +40mm Dobinson , rear +50mm EHDVR Lovells, Dobinson MT struts and shockers, Peddars 5899 cone springs, Windcheater rack, GME UHF, Custom alloy drawer system inc. 30lt Engel & 2 x 30 AH LiFePo batteries + elec controls, Tailgate hi-lift/long struts, Phillips +100 LB & HB, Lightforce 20" single row driving beam LED lightbar, Scanguage II.
          MM4x4 Auto Mate, Serial No 1 .

          Comment


          • #6
            I know Jack said the DMF "must" be replaced when a clutch is replaced, but in the case of the one time I replaced the clutch in a Jackaroo,I found the opposite...... the clutch looked new , as did the DMF, with no score marks etc....in fact it looked brand new, not a single mark on it........so it didn't get touched, and lasted another 60,000 K's until I sold the 4wd..

            Comment


            • #7
              Really good info Old Jack - as usual of course.

              Thanks for your input.

              Cheers,
              Bigdave.
              Cheers,
              Bigdave

              Parted ways with my 2010 PB Manual after 9 years of reliable motoring...
              Icom 440 Remote UHF, 130AH AGM in rear, Tekonsha Primus IQ Brake Controller, Bridgestone D697s, HR Towbar, Kings KCRS-23 springs / Pedders 5899. Single axle 18' Caravan with muddies & good clearance - ATM 2.5T/Ball weight 250kg

              Comment


              • #8
                Are you sure the PB Challenger has a DMF?
                Found this on the newtriton website - '2010 MN tritons already have the single mass flywheel, its the 06-09 MLs that have the dual mass setup.' http://www.newtriton.net/phpbb/viewt...ywheel#p383131

                I was sure I read somewhere that the Challengers have a SMF. It was one of the reasons I wanted one.
                2010 PB LS- ARB Bull Bar, Runva 11XP winch, Cooper ST Maxx 265/70/17, Ultimate suspension lift, Bushskinz plates, Kaymar rear bar with single wheel carrier.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Touching on a DMF clutch, my second car is a turbo forester with a DMF. I have spent time on the beach, towing a 1.6t boat and a drove probably 2000km with a 2t caravan on the back. I am still on the original clutch and it's just about to tick over 200,000km.
                  My previous forester had 190,000km before a new clutch was required with towing and beach work done in it. I believe its all about the driver, while there may be some unlucky people or some poorly designed clutches they should last a long time.
                  NW Exceed

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Clutches are basically an in/out drive device, they are not designed to be used as a variable drive device by slipping them. Except briefly to start the vehicle moving off smoothly.

                    My PB is used for a lot of towing which is why the auto was selected. Both autos and manuals have pros and cons, no escaping that.
                    Richard.......MY12 silver base model auto rear driver tow truck and shopping trolley. Bilsteins, Firestone rear air bags, HR towbar, Scangauge II and aftermarket reverse camera/GPS navigation unit. SOLD

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Toddyh View Post
                      Are you sure the PB Challenger has a DMF?
                      Found this on the newtriton website - '2010 MN tritons already have the single mass flywheel, its the 06-09 MLs that have the dual mass setup.' http://www.newtriton.net/phpbb/viewt...ywheel#p383131

                      I was sure I read somewhere that the Challengers have a SMF. It was one of the reasons I wanted one.
                      See post #5, 4wd PB Challengers have a "flexible flywheel".

                      cheers, old Jack.
                      2011 PB Base White Auto, Smartbar, Cooper STMaxx LT235/85R-16,TPMS, HR TB, 3 x Bushskinz, front +40mm Dobinson , rear +50mm EHDVR Lovells, Dobinson MT struts and shockers, Peddars 5899 cone springs, Windcheater rack, GME UHF, Custom alloy drawer system inc. 30lt Engel & 2 x 30 AH LiFePo batteries + elec controls, Tailgate hi-lift/long struts, Phillips +100 LB & HB, Lightforce 20" single row driving beam LED lightbar, Scanguage II.
                      MM4x4 Auto Mate, Serial No 1 .

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 260DET View Post
                        Clutches are basically an in/out drive device, they are not designed to be used as a variable drive device by slipping them. Except briefly to start the vehicle moving off smoothly.

                        My PB is used for a lot of towing which is why the auto was selected. Both autos and manuals have pros and cons, no escaping that.

                        And seeing as the Challenger has a very tall 1st gear in the manual, it makes sense to have an auto if you are doing a lot of towing..

                        I have a manual....and love it.........except for towing ( and low range 4wding )........sometimes a bit of a mission trying to avoid getting stuck at traffic lights on a hill while towing ..

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by old Jack View Post
                          See post #5, 4wd PB Challengers have a "flexible flywheel".

                          cheers, old Jack.
                          I did see those posts but have no idea who 'Outback Extreme' are and am therefore sceptical about how much they know. So are you saying the flywheel in the PB Challenger is different to what's in the MN Triton? I thought they were pretty much mechanic twins (I know the CVs are slightly different).
                          2010 PB LS- ARB Bull Bar, Runva 11XP winch, Cooper ST Maxx 265/70/17, Ultimate suspension lift, Bushskinz plates, Kaymar rear bar with single wheel carrier.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Outback Extreme are an aftermarket supplier of clutches, I have not used them so I can not comment on them.

                            The "flexible flywheel" that is fitted, this info is from the factory Service Manual.

                            REMOVAL AND INSTALLATION
                            Caution ; On the flexible flywheel equipped engines, do not remove any of the bolts "A" of the flywheel shown in the illustration. The balance of the flexible flywheel is adjusted in an assembled condition. Removing the bolt, therefore, can cause the flexible flywheel to be out of balance giving and resulting in damage.

                            1.Flywheel bolt (M/T-2WD)
                            2.Ball bearing (M/T-2WD)
                            3.Flywheel (M/T-2WD)
                            4.Flywheel bolt (M/T-4WD)
                            5.Ball bearing (M/T-4WD)
                            6.Adapter (M/T-4WD)
                            7.Flexible flywheel (M/T-4WD)
                            8.Crankshaft adapter (M/T-4WD)

                            9.Drive plate bolt (A/T)
                            10.Adapter plate (A/T)
                            11.Drive plate (A/T)
                            12.Crankshaft adapter (A/T)
                            13.Rear plate
                            14.Bell housing cover
                            15.Oil seal case
                            16.Oil seal
                            17.Bearing cap bolt
                            18.Bearing cap
                            19.Bearing cap No.3
                            20.Bearing cap No.4
                            21.Crankshaft bearing, lower
                            22.Crankshaft
                            23.Crankshaft bearing, upper
                            24.Crankshaft thrust bearing
                            25.Check valve
                            26.Oil jet
                            27.Engine support bracket, right
                            28.Engine support bracket, left
                            29.Cylinder block




                            cheers, old Jack.
                            2011 PB Base White Auto, Smartbar, Cooper STMaxx LT235/85R-16,TPMS, HR TB, 3 x Bushskinz, front +40mm Dobinson , rear +50mm EHDVR Lovells, Dobinson MT struts and shockers, Peddars 5899 cone springs, Windcheater rack, GME UHF, Custom alloy drawer system inc. 30lt Engel & 2 x 30 AH LiFePo batteries + elec controls, Tailgate hi-lift/long struts, Phillips +100 LB & HB, Lightforce 20" single row driving beam LED lightbar, Scanguage II.
                            MM4x4 Auto Mate, Serial No 1 .

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks Old Jack. That's good info. Now I just need to figure out what the hell a 'flexible flywheel' is

                              I've been through DMFs with my last vehicle. My conclusion was that they suck and are useless in any off-road vehicle. Hopefully this flexible flywheel is a better option.

                              Edit: just found this link http://www.jsautomotive.ie/_fileupload/Cl-031.pdf
                              2010 PB LS- ARB Bull Bar, Runva 11XP winch, Cooper ST Maxx 265/70/17, Ultimate suspension lift, Bushskinz plates, Kaymar rear bar with single wheel carrier.

                              Comment

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