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**greig** · 12-12-13, 04:22 PM

I have a friend with a Challenger who gets a bit of slip when towing....only if the chip is installed ( chip it )......and started doing it at 15,000 K's.....

Mine has the same chip...has done 60,000 K's and no sign of slipping..

He has taken it back to Mitsu, but without towing, they obviously can't get it to slip.....

One of the thoughts was seeing as there are 2 different types of clutch available for the Challenger ( but we only get the stronger one here ), has my friend got the weaker clutch??....somehow installed at the factory by mistake ??

I think generally ( hope not to jinx myself ) the Mitsu clutch seems to be a fairly strong unit...especially compared to Nissan and Mazda ones..

As a side note, I had a Jackaroo once that had slipping problems, and after removing the clutch, it was found to be almost brand new ( 100,000 K's ), but the pressure plate fingers had lost tension....cost me $750 for a full rebuild of the original clutch....as opposed to $2500 for a new Holden one..

**bigdave** · 12-12-13, 09:26 PM

Thanks Greig,

Interesting info.

I should add that my solitary clutch slip was not while towing, and just gently changing from 1st to 2nd.

Cheers,
Bigdave

**old Jack** · 12-12-13, 11:12 PM

Hi Dave,

Unfortunately the manual 4wd Challenger is fitted with a Dual Mass Flywheel, these DMF's are fitted to many modern diesels that produce high power and torque. They are fitted to make the driving experience more car like by isolating engine pulses from the driveline however due to the DMF's construction they do not have a long life when used in high load situations such as towing, off road and/or the engine is chipped . Some DMF's fail at 20,000km and others do up to to 100,000km or more before they have problems. DMF's must be replaced when the clutch plate is changed and they can not be machined and are not cheap at $3K to $5K for parts and labour. There are some aftermarket DMF's and also single mass flywheel conversion kits made but I am not aware of one for the PB Challenger at this stage.

The standard factory clutch has quite a high clamping force at 7,000 Newtons but because of the low mass of the flywheel on the clutch side of the DMF it is very easy to overheat the fly wheel and clutch plate, once this occurs then the clutch will slip and once slipping it will continue to deteriorate. I have not heard of any DMF failures on Challengers yet and have not checked on the New Triton website. If they had an inherent weakness I am sure the New Triton boys would have found it as they go hard and heavy!

We need to remember the clutch is the mechanical fuse that separates the engine and driveline, overload or mistreat it and it will "blow" and you have no drive. You are correct the high first gearing and the turbo-lag of a 4 cylinder CRD engine means that on starting on an incline with a heavy load requires some clutch mistreatment and in this case the auto trans is better suited for these applications but at the expense of greater fuel consumption and loss of driving performance and feel.

Sorry, this probably does not help or make you feel better but it is a design limitation that the manual Challenger and many other vehicles have.

cheers, old Jack.

**old Jack** · 13-12-13, 10:57 AM

Hi Dave,

I have just had a call from the guys that do "Outback Extreme" clutches, according to them the Mitsubishi Flexible Flywheel is not a conventional design DMF and is more robust and can be machined at least once and is less prone to failure than conventional DMF's. Thats good news!

There are after market HD clutches available for about $950, the factory clutch has a clamping force of 7,000N which is 714kg and the Outback Extreme has a clamping force of 950kg, that is a 33% increase! I know from experience on other 4wds that I have upgraded to HD clutches that they are great but they do put extra load on the hydraulics so a replacement master & slave cylinders and clutch line dampener are normally required soon after fitting a HD clutch.

cheers, old Jack.

**greig** · 13-12-13, 12:10 PM

I know Jack said the DMF "must" be replaced when a clutch is replaced, but in the case of the one time I replaced the clutch in a Jackaroo,I found the opposite...... the clutch looked new , as did the DMF, with no score marks etc....in fact it looked brand new, not a single mark on it........so it didn't get touched, and lasted another 60,000 K's until I sold the 4wd..

**bigdave** · 14-12-13, 09:30 PM

Really good info Old Jack - as usual of course.

Thanks for your input.

Cheers,
Bigdave.

**Toddyh** · 19-12-13, 11:51 AM

Are you sure the PB Challenger has a DMF?
Found this on the newtriton website - '2010 MN tritons already have the single mass flywheel, its the 06-09 MLs that have the dual mass setup.' http://www.newtriton.net/phpbb/viewt...ywheel#p383131

I was sure I read somewhere that the Challengers have a SMF. It was one of the reasons I wanted one.

**Pauno** · 19-12-13, 01:17 PM

Touching on a DMF clutch, my second car is a turbo forester with a DMF. I have spent time on the beach, towing a 1.6t boat and a drove probably 2000km with a 2t caravan on the back. I am still on the original clutch and it's just about to tick over 200,000km.
My previous forester had 190,000km before a new clutch was required with towing and beach work done in it. I believe its all about the driver, while there may be some unlucky people or some poorly designed clutches they should last a long time.

**260DET** · 19-12-13, 01:27 PM

Clutches are basically an in/out drive device, they are not designed to be used as a variable drive device by slipping them. Except briefly to start the vehicle moving off smoothly.

My PB is used for a lot of towing which is why the auto was selected. Both autos and manuals have pros and cons, no escaping that.

**old Jack** · 19-12-13, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by Toddyh View Post

Are you sure the PB Challenger has a DMF?
Found this on the newtriton website - '2010 MN tritons already have the single mass flywheel, its the 06-09 MLs that have the dual mass setup.' http://www.newtriton.net/phpbb/viewt...ywheel#p383131

I was sure I read somewhere that the Challengers have a SMF. It was one of the reasons I wanted one.

See post #5, 4wd PB Challengers have a "flexible flywheel".

cheers, old Jack.

**greig** · 19-12-13, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by 260DET View Post

Clutches are basically an in/out drive device, they are not designed to be used as a variable drive device by slipping them. Except briefly to start the vehicle moving off smoothly.

My PB is used for a lot of towing which is why the auto was selected. Both autos and manuals have pros and cons, no escaping that.

And seeing as the Challenger has a very tall 1st gear in the manual, it makes sense to have an auto if you are doing a lot of towing..

I have a manual....and love it.........except for towing ( and low range 4wding )........sometimes a bit of a mission trying to avoid getting stuck at traffic lights on a hill while towing ..

**Toddyh** · 19-12-13, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by old Jack View Post

See post #5, 4wd PB Challengers have a "flexible flywheel".

cheers, old Jack.

I did see those posts but have no idea who 'Outback Extreme' are and am therefore sceptical about how much they know. So are you saying the flywheel in the PB Challenger is different to what's in the MN Triton? I thought they were pretty much mechanic twins (I know the CVs are slightly different).

**old Jack** · 19-12-13, 03:20 PM

Outback Extreme are an aftermarket supplier of clutches, I have not used them so I can not comment on them.

The "flexible flywheel" that is fitted, this info is from the factory Service Manual.

REMOVAL AND INSTALLATION
Caution ; On the flexible flywheel equipped engines, do not remove any of the bolts "A" of the flywheel shown in the illustration. The balance of the flexible flywheel is adjusted in an assembled condition. Removing the bolt, therefore, can cause the flexible flywheel to be out of balance giving and resulting in damage.

1.Flywheel bolt (M/T-2WD)
2.Ball bearing (M/T-2WD)
3.Flywheel (M/T-2WD)
4.Flywheel bolt (M/T-4WD)
5.Ball bearing (M/T-4WD)
6.Adapter (M/T-4WD)
7.Flexible flywheel (M/T-4WD)
8.Crankshaft adapter (M/T-4WD)
9.Drive plate bolt (A/T)
10.Adapter plate (A/T)
11.Drive plate (A/T)
12.Crankshaft adapter (A/T)
13.Rear plate
14.Bell housing cover
15.Oil seal case
16.Oil seal
17.Bearing cap bolt
18.Bearing cap
19.Bearing cap No.3
20.Bearing cap No.4
21.Crankshaft bearing, lower
22.Crankshaft
23.Crankshaft bearing, upper
24.Crankshaft thrust bearing
25.Check valve
26.Oil jet
27.Engine support bracket, right
28.Engine support bracket, left
29.Cylinder block

cheers, old Jack.

**Toddyh** · 19-12-13, 03:38 PM

Thanks Old Jack. That's good info. Now I just need to figure out what the hell a 'flexible flywheel' is

I've been through DMFs with my last vehicle. My conclusion was that they suck and are useless in any off-road vehicle. Hopefully this flexible flywheel is a better option.

Edit: just found this link http://www.jsautomotive.ie/_fileupload/Cl-031.pdf

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